Episode 3 : Destruction in Art

Sunday • April 16, 2023 12:34 AM • 34:19


The Writer – The Musician

Musician  00:06

Hey everybody! Welcome to Stream of Coffeeness.

Writer  00:10

I’m The Writer.

Musician  00:11

And I’m The Musician. Welcome to another podcast. Could be our third. Who’s keeping track?

Writer  00:20

Yeah, only Speckoi, she’s on my lap. She’s making… Oh, that’s my cat (laughter)

Musician  00:29

(laughter)  She’s actually licking coffee off her tail.

Writer  00:36

Oh yeah.

Musician  00:37

So to that, I would say : Cheers!

Writer  00:40


Musician  00:46

…and if you have coffee, cheers to you as well.

Writer  00:50

Yum, that sip was delicious,

Musician  00:54


Writer  00:54

Yeah. Creamy.

Musician  01:00

So one thing we love to talk about is art.

Writer  01:03

We love it. This is our jam.

Musician  01:07

And best to just be doing art talking about art seems meaningless. But somehow the words can give you some direction sometimes or help you.

Writer  01:22

Inspire you.

Musician  01:23

Inspire, some clarity, focus. It can help direct there’s great books will probably recommend along the way things like Steal Like an Artist, or a book called Art and Fear.

Writer  01:35

They’re so good. I love those books.

Musician  01:37

….or something like the … what is that book that she takes you along the journey and makes you do the writing pages and it’s a whole…

Writer  01:46

The Artists Way by Julia Cameron. That one’s great.

Musician  01:51

That’s a great book. So yeah, get inspired.

Writer  01:54

Yeah. And then make art and share it with us.

Musician  02:02

Well, art, most people would say is creation. Creative. A creative effort. You’re creating something.

Writer  02:15

Definitely. It’s definitely a space of blank nothingness.

Musician  02:22

That’s an easy one.

Writer  02:23

We create something.

Musician  02:25

Everyone, when you say “Art is creation” everybody goes “Yes.”

Writer  02:29


Musician  02:30

But if I said that art was destructive.

Writer  02:34


Musician  02:39

Like art is kind of violent. And artists destroying, there’s a violence or destruction to art. People wouldn’t necessarily agree. Yeah, they might think that that’s not art. If you’re destroying things, if there’s a destructive kind of violence to the art, like might rub people the wrong way. They think it’s creative and beautiful. And…

Writer  03:03

What is the Indian God Vishnu that is the God of Destruction, right? I’d have to look it all up. But there is a God of creation.

Musician  03:14

Just insert your own god of destruction.

Writer  03:17


Musician  03:18

Whoever your god of destruction is.

Writer  03:21

It’s all part of it.

Musician  03:24

But there is destruction in art. You take a blank piece of paper or a blank canvas and destroy it with your writing. You take the canvas and with each stroke if you put another stroke on top of that you’re destroying the first stroke like you can even like fix mistakes like you can put something on a piece of art not like it and just destroy it by doing over but you’re actually creating your vision your beauty,

Writer  04:00

What would be another word besides destroy? Because destroy, destroy sounds, or maybe…

Musician  04:08

See I’ve even rubbed you the wrong way and it even doesn’t sit well with you.

Writer  04:13

Because destroy sounds like something’s been taken away and really like forever like destroy.

Musician  04:20

It is. That’s the butterfly the butterfly destroys the cocoon and destroys the chrysalis and destroys the…

Writer  04:30

Like it’s no longer pretty and perfect and beautiful. But then it becomes something beautiful.

Musician  04:33

That’s…I’d almost have to grab the book…

Writer  04:34

…emerges and flies and just becomes itself.

Musician  04:43

Illusions by Richard Bach. And he states that oh my gosh, I’d have to grab it. Id actually have to go… if you could talk.

The Musician  04:52

Yeah, I’ll talk about stuff.

Musician  04:55

I would, I would grab it but you…

Writer  04:59

We can even edit it.

Musician  05:01

…it’s about the butterfly. Oh yeah, just fast forward to where I actually say the meaningful quote.

Writer  05:11

I just know that I love his book called Jonathan Livingston Seagull.

Musician  05:16

Oh that’s yeah that’s wonderful.

Writer  05:20

How a bird went away from the flock to go follow his dream of flying the highest he could fly and the fastest he could fly.

Musician  05:30

I’m glad you I loved illusions I didn’t know about that book and you turned me on to it and I read it.

Writer  05:35

I love turning you on.

Musician  05:39


Writer  05:40


Musician  05:50

The quote by Richard Bach “What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls the butterfly.”

Writer  05:59

Damn. Wow.

Musician  06:03

So it is the end of something. You’ve ended that blank canvas. You’ve ended the silence with your music you’ve…

Writer  06:12

That word feels more in alignment than destroy.

Musician  06:17

I don’t think there’s too much differentiation or you know what I mean? It’s just probably two different words for the same thing.

Writer  06:22


Musician  06:24

Calling it a lovely surprise from your bottom instead of poop.

Writer  06:30

Lovely sick lovely surprise. Surprise!

Musician  06:37

But speaking of which, then you don’t always have to some artists that proved that you don’t always have to end or destroy to create the art. John Cage did a piece that is 3 minutes and 33 seconds of silence and that is the piece, that is the music… is an empty space.

Writer  07:03

I love that. It is. That is.

Musician  07:07

…and for continuity we keep talking about nothing and something and everything so…Nothing ends the moment you put something in the “nothing.” To have something. You can’t have nothing, you have something. you have nothing… we talk about inspiration for the artists the inspiration is the nothing a blank wall to a graffiti artist is everything and and the blank page to the writer and…

Writer  07:42

Oh yeah.

Musician  07:43

Silence to a composer they hear the music in their head and they have to get it out it’s inspiration to have that you wouldn’t be inspired. Although some are…

Writer  07:45

Mm. Yeah. …to emptiness

Musician  07:55

…to a done… no, a completed painting you wouldn’t be inspired to go paint on it and take a page and want to write on another writers writing or some people, I guess, do.

Writer  08:04

Yeah. No, I’m inspired by the blank empty.

Musician  08:09

It’s an invitation.

Writer  08:10

It is.

Musician  08:11

There’s an invitation.

Writer  08:12

It really is. Have you ever had those times in your life where you wanted to, like, what you’re saying, you know, destroy or end, you know, so much in your life in order to build again?

Musician  08:31

You have to.

Writer  08:32

Like, I was thinking of like the time when I was 20 years old and I literally gave almost everything away to move somewhere and build a new life for myself and yeah, I barely kept anything literally everything I just gave away and it felt really good to just have nothing just have myself to open to whatever new was coming for me.

Musician  09:08

It’s like hoarders. They can’t move on in their life. They hoard and keep everything nothing is ever…

Writer  09:18

Oh my god that would be terrifying.

Musician  09:20


Writer  09:20

That would be terrifying because I think I psychically like feel things that like when I have too much stuff in my house I can feel my brain like like becoming claustrophobic and like shrinking.

Musician  09:36

So they can’t create a new life. You letting go of everything. Not really everything. There’s some things you keep. But in essence those things that you keep drag your old life into the new life.

Writer  09:52


Musician  09:55

And maybe artists sticking to their ideal of their first album, drag. People drag their career with this idea that they can’t change. They can’t let go of any of their past or what they’ve done.

Writer  10:15

That’s so much pressure for people to live up to something from the past instead of just, you know, kind of like we’re always having those cocoons you were talking about all through life and breaking through to emerge from who you are now versus who you were in the past. Because we are always changing.

Musician  10:35

Yes. How the Beatles took radical diversions and changes and became something bigger than they ever could have been if they kept doing the same “I want to hold your hand” 50s style 60s, someone like Radiohead. If they kept to their first album, they would never be as huge as they are, but they’ve been experimental and growing.

Writer  11:04

I think that journey is fascinating for people to see the artists just follow their own creative impulse and trust it and flow with it. It’s almost like the people that are listening or watching or reading or whatever it be, can feel that trust that even the artist had in themselves. And they trust you know, they they become a fan and they follow them and like really get excited for the next thing.

Musician  11:35

Right, like people trusted somebody like Andy Warhol, or Yes, or whoever. Think about Prince or David Bowie, big, big artists that have had a lot of different transitions and changes and kept going and growing as an artist. There’s people that would just digest and buy anything, and be a part of want to be a part of any of the movement.

Writer  12:03

Garry Shandling, we saw that documentary on him, a comedian

Musician  12:08

The Zen of Garry Shandling watch it, oh my god, it’s so good.

Writer  12:11

It was so cool to see him change in his life. And, you know, those times in his life when he literally ended like this part of his career.

Musician  12:23

Oh, yes.

Writer  12:24

Even successful. And he was like, No, I’m feeling something new come in, and I need to do this. And he did it.

Musician  12:32

He would have been a writer probably his whole life just writing comedy. If he hadn’t taken the leap to doing stand up and getting his shot on The Tonight Show or Merv Griffin or, you know, whatever shows. And even then, this is in The Larry Sanders Show and sort of a thing that happens where people used to get their big breaks on The Tonight Show or the Ed Sullivan or that would be their big break. So a comedian can’t wait to do their tight five minute set on one of those shows and get out to millions of people and really start their career there. That then getting that break and getting that start, honoring that person…they would then be reluctant to do other people’s shows. The competition.

Writer  12:33


Musician  12:34

Yeah, so they would like stick to the Tonight Show and just do that and not do the other shows that would hurt their career. But then they’d have to be in growth to keep moving forward and keep doing new things…

Writer  12:34

…take those leaps.

Musician  13:10

…and take leaps and for him to go from writing TV shows to stand up comedy, years and years of stand up comedy and then to go to his own television shows the It’s Garry Shandling Show, which was groundbreaking. Probably created what would become The Office or shows like that, because it was just so different.

Writer  14:05

That’s so true.

Musician  14:06

And Larry Sanders Show which is one of my favorite things that like ever happened on television, one of the funniest shows I’ve ever seen. It was so brilliant to look at a talk show from behind the scenes and see what happens. What you’re not supposed to see what happens behind the curtain.

Writer  14:28

You made me think just now when you’re saying all that about taking the leap in our art, or in life or in anything and everything that when we take the leap and we’re ending or destroying something even in taking the leap …that would be our fear, right?  Oh yes. That we’re ending and destroying some fear inside of ourselves moving through it.

Musician  15:00

Yes, that said, Jerry Seinfeld, an interview with Jerry Seinfeld, he said that the really good comedy, the really good comedians, your setup for a joke is a leap of faith. And the punch line is the landing. And there’s timing in between your jump and your landing. And some stretch that leap out and stretch the leap so that when the punch line lands and has more impact and some leap and land fast to sort of surprise you because there’s no time in between the most important thing in comedy. Do you know what the most important thing in comedy is?

Writer  15:42


Musician  15:43

Yes. You couldn’t even let me land. You stole the punch line from me.

Writer  15:49

What is it?

Musician  15:51

Most people don’t say the punch line. I say like, what is the most important thing in comedy? …and you…

Writer  15:56


Musician  15:57

You try to say? “I don’t know.” And while you’re saying I don’t know, I interrupt you with “Timing.”

Writer  16:01

Oh. I was thinking like, you’re gonna say something like, it’s like sex with edging. So when you’re taking, you’re extending the timing. Its like edging.

Musician  16:18

I’ve now completely forgot what we were talking about. Let’s just talk about sex. And play some Salt and Peppa.

Writer  16:30

You know, cuz you gotta like, some people try to do it really fast. You know, like you’re talking about with your comedy.

Musician  16:37

Here we go. now we’ll do now we’ll do it perfectly ready? Okay, so what’s the most important thing in comedy? Timing. You’re supposed to say “I don’t know.” I’ll feed you the lines.

Writer  16:44

Speckoi. (Laughter) Cheers.

Musician  17:02

You’re even better than the perfect straight person for a joke. Like there’s one joker and the one straight person. But even some of the best straight people ARE so incredible because they’re so unpredictable.

Writer  17:16


Musician  17:16

Here again, Larry Sanders Show Hank, his sidekick, was… he was kind of cringy so people cringe. But Larry would always defend he’s a beautiful, beautiful person because he’s so unpredictable. It’s like he’s a gift.

Writer  17:33

Oh, I love that. I love the unpredictability, like because it’s so like present like in the moment.

Musician  17:40

Hey now!

Writer  17:40

You know, is that what Hank says?

Musician  17:45

That’s an inside joke. Hey now.

Writer  17:50

So back to like, what we’re talking about with…

Musician  17:55


Writer  17:56

…destruction, oh,

Musician  17:57

Kidding. I kid, I kid. Destruction.

Writer  18:01


Musician  18:07

(Laughter) Cheers.  You’re a gift. Well, destruction or ending, people think that art is such a creative endeavor and don’t realize some of the other side of it, which everything has the… everything has another side. Like, there’s a duality. Where light has dark and happiness has sadness and both exist at the same time and to ignore one can have such an effect on the other one like almost negate it, like, happy life with no sadness at all, would theoretically have less happiness in it than a life that has both immense sadness, and immense happiness and the immense happiness is only built upon that immense sadness. Awareness of the sadness. …because you have to have comparison. If the lowest moment in your life is like still pretty amazing and wonderful and beautiful, you know? Then that’s your lowest moment. And so your highest moment can’t be that high there’s nowhere to go. How they say like once you hit rock bottom there’s a beauty because there’s nowhere to go but up. You letting go of everything in your life. There’s nowhere to go but create a new life because you…

Writer  19:41

…but create and it feels like everything’s been destroyed when you’re at that bottom like completely ended.

Musician  19:50

And there they they..

Writer  19:52

The power is in the creating.

Musician  19:55

Right they need each other.

Writer  19:56

…from that space it needs, that space needs it in order to move forward, it gives to it. It’s very generous actually.

Musician  20:07


Writer  20:09

It doesn’t feel like it in the moment. But it is there’s something really generous in that space when you tap into it. And that’s in life and in art too the, like, if something ends in our life. And a new beginning happens. When I think of that, in an artistic sense, there feels like it feels like the imagination. You know, that’s a world too.

Musician  20:39

Hard to imagine something new with, with all the old stuff in the way.

Writer  20:44

So much energy, so much energy to move through. And sometimes it’s so sticky.

Musician  20:51

Maybe that’s even it. The energy, that vibration and energy that that clutters like you said about the imagination, how can you imagine, you know, a new piece of art on the wall, when the old one is still there. So maybe just taking the old piece down, would allow the imagination to…

Writer  21:14

Be free.

Musician  21:15

…have that, have that space, and freedom to to actually imagine the new piece of art.

Writer  21:21

Something new. That is so beautiful. I feel that. I feel that so strongly. It makes me think of traveling. And when you set off on that adventure, you just feel so open and free, like you can do anything. And it’s good for the imagination, it’s good for your sense of adventure for connection.

Musician  21:54

It expands, like, your map of the world. If you never leave your hometown, tiny little thing, and every travel, your map grows larger.

Writer  22:08

I want to go traveling.

Musician  22:09

…and your wealth of experience and the people you encounter I mean that, you know, the more you traveled the world you would touch so much that internal map if we call it or that internal space, it becomes broad and wide and depth. And there’s so much more it’s like you break down walls inside yourself. And this bigger space inside of you can imagine more. Because you’ve seen so much you can imagine more. Even more places that you can travel you can imagine more people that you can touch and more foods and more art more. Everything. There’s more there’s theoretically infinite. But…

Writer  22:55

Yes. So much yes.

Musician  22:59

That’s the everything.

Writer  23:05

That’s another comfortable silence with you my amore.

Musician  23:08


Writer  23:09


Musician  23:10

Wanna lay down?

Writer  23:12


Musician  23:13

And make snow angels in the silence. (Laughter) A bed of silence they call it that’s in radio.

Writer  23:25

A bed of silence.

Musician  23:28

Or they they put down a like a music track as a bed, a music bed instead of a music silence. I mean a bed of silence, bed of music versus a bed of silence.

Writer  23:40

I’m confused now. I’m just kidding.

Musician  23:44

In radio they would they would ask you, you know, do you want like a bed of silence? Or do you want a music bed and put some music on and they would put a little music in the background and talk over it. Silence is supposed to be like a death in radio. Like radio announcers where they never stop talking and they can just gush and they go oh, hey everybody, it’s 10:40 on the hour and the weather is pretty clear. And the next I’m going to play is this and they just keep talking they never stop. That is so like unnerving because like it’s like “Cállate!” for a moment.  They’ve done the studies.

Writer  24:23

Just relax. Is that people’s brains? And their ADHD and ADD and they always need to be having some thing.

Musician  24:32

Five seconds of silence and you’re like, Oh, I guess that show’s over and you just turn to the next station and they can’t do that they have advertisers they need to keep you like on the hook. They have to keep you like…

Writer  24:43

But being in a bed feel so good. Even a bed of silence. (Laughter)

Musician  24:51

Apparently not in radio. Apparently people are not comfortable.

Writer  24:55

It’s like a snuggle. Silences can be a snuggle.

Musician  24:58

But most people refer to it as I uncomfortable silence versus comfortable silence.

Writer  25:02

See, we have to, like, snuggle ourselves in the silence when you’re like a person, you know, is so needing to grab something outside of themselves with their attention, you know, but then when silence comes, maybe it’s good to just say, Okay, I get to snuggle myself in this moment. Silence.

Musician  25:24

That’s meditation, you have to practice that turning off of the mind, the silence is so uncomfortable for most people.

Writer  25:33


Musician  25:34

They ask, like, what do I do during meditation? What do I think about?Nothing. Really?

Writer  25:39

I get it, though.

Musician  25:40

What’s that like?

Writer  25:41

Even in myself, like, at times, the times I love it. Other times, it’s more uncomfortable. I think I’m still trying to find my way through it. It seems to all have information for me. The silence feels really loud to me, like I get to decode, you know, vibrations of myself like feelings or thoughts.

Musician  26:06


Writer  26:06

Like, it’s all information. And I, I’m actually fascinated by it, but I’m not always comfortable with it. I’m fascinated.

Musician  26:14

Beyond even whether or not you think you’re comfortable or uncomfortable with silence. Humans aren’t really built for it, there is a room that is the most soundproof room in the world. But no human can spend more than an hour in that room without having like, severe mental trauma. Like, you can go completely nuts.

Writer  26:41

We talked about this in our first episode, that room.

Musician  26:48

And then we didn’t talk for 40 minutes, and went nuts.

Writer  26:53

So I want to hear from the listeners. Feel free to write in and let us know. How would you feel if we said, we started our intro with this podcast for one episode and said, Hey, everybody, I’m the writer, I’m the musician. You know, welcome to Stream of Coffeeness. And then we had silence for 40 minutes or 20 minutes? Even. Would you like that? Would you welcome it would you invite it?

Musician  27:23

They would turn it off.

Writer  27:24

They would? (Laughter)

Musician  27:25

Studies have shown. Even though it would give you the space to create your own podcast, you would talk over and take you know, take the podcast and each person would have an individual experience it’d be very unique. Nobody would have the same.

Writer  27:41

That sounds cool, huh?

Musician  27:50

Love to research it because there is the you know, John Cage did silence. There was a band that actually, I forget which band a punk band that in tribute to John Cage or you know, at least didn’t steal like an artist in the in the spirit of Steal Like an Artist did one minute 11 seconds of silence to complement his three minutes and 33 seconds of silence. But then the John Cage Foundation, those people went and sued that band. And won. Because John Cage already had the copyright on a song that is silent.

Writer  28:31


Musician  28:32

So nobody can now release silence as an art form because John Cage has it trademarked or…

Writer  28:39

How would you steal like an artist for that? Silence.

Musician  28:41

…his signature piece.  I don’t even know you can’t you theoretically can’t. He really did that. Like he Nailed it.

Writer  28:49


Musician  28:49

Nailed it! But then other artists, you know, I had a hour long or more discussion, read “argument” with somebody in a bar, looking at a frame on the wall, and they said, “That’s stupid.” And I said no, that’s art. And they said that is absolutely not art that’s just a frame on the wall. Like behind it. You can see the wall. So it’s is a wall art. I’m like, once you frame it, yes, it is. And Frank Zappa said that he said, You have to frame your art, you have to put a beginning and an end and frame it and then give it to the consumer, or the the listener or the whoever it is. He didn’t say consumer, he said listener but he, he was sort of warning musicians like you can’t do this freeform nonsense, you have to start somewhere,  end somewhere, clearly frame your art and then give it to the people. And so, I would argue that you put a frame on the wall and that’s art and it’ll always be unique because it’s a different wall. It’s different. Something there’s something going on.

Writer  29:54

And what maybe the person that you were talking with saw was the wall. But what if when you were looking at it, you saw a picture of me and you together, and we were smiling and happy and but it was in your imagination? Isn’t that just as real?

Musician  30:13

Some artists could go up and draw a circle. And now it’s a circle inside of a frame and it’s interactive art. A fly lands on it. That’s real time art. It’s…

Writer  30:25

Real time art.

Musician  30:26

I can’t I can’t help but be on the side of “that is art.” Whatever’s inside the frame is art. And there’s a beauty to that, I think. Because there’s a freedom instead of thinking that artists have to follow rules. I don’t think there are rules and once you give an artist rules, they’ll find a way to break them.

Writer  30:49

Oh, yeah.

Musician  30:49

That’s the nature of the imagination. And we, we can’t help but the minute that…

Writer  30:55

It’s part of destroying, right?

Musician  30:56


Writer  30:58

And ending, yes.

Musician  30:59

That um another quote, I don’t know who said it. That while scientists are busy creating better mousetraps, nature is busy creating better mice. Nature will find a way or even then like we’re saying artists will find a way. I think the moment you give artists rules, they’ll find a way to break them. That pushes art like uh…

Writer  31:27

I support it.

Musician  31:29

Say in Project Runway they’ll always like talking about pushing the edges and pushing.

Writer  31:37

Going further.

Musician  31:38

Not just doing the same outfits the same techniques the same everything when they see something pushing fashion.

Writer  31:44

Challenge. Challenge yourself. Challenge your own mind.

Musician  31:48

Even challenging the the audience and their imagination.

Writer  31:54


Musician  31:54

Like I was trying to challenge that person to accepting that the frame creates the art. Framing the art really helps you.

Writer  32:04

Did they ever see it different?

Musician  32:06

No. No, they were really, really adamant that it’s a cop out for an artist to just put a frame on the wall and frame nothing. Or then they started talking about how these people do these pieces that are just black you know, just : canvas painted black, throw it on the wall and call it art.

Writer  32:26

And sell it for $4,000.

Musician  32:31

Whatever someone’s willing to pay. The Banksy. Banksy did a perfect piece he created a frame that had a shredder built into the bottom of it. Nobody knew. Put the art in there and left it for years and it’s one of his famous pieces and people were buying you know auctioning millions and millions and I forget what it sold for 2 million or I don’t know I’d have to look it up. I’d have to look at how much it’s sold for it’s definitely over a million dollars and I believe it was two or a lot. …like just a lot is like ridiculous like whoa, I can’t believe it sold for that much money. Moment it’s sold that person click you know, okay sold to that person. Banksy flipped the switch, and the piece shredded through the bottom of the frame. And there’s destruction that’s your destruction folks. So create all the art that you’re creating, but sometimes you have to destroy some things to really.

Writer  33:06

Even more. Create more.

Musician  33:39

Create more art.

Writer  33:41

Or enjoy the silence of nothing. There.

Musician  33:45

If this were a proper radio show, I would outro with Enjoy The Silence by Depeche Mode. And bid you a wonderful day. Make good art.

Writer  33:56

We love you.

Musician  33:59


Stream of Coffeeness is a podcast that covers a wide range of topics including art, nature, love, music, spirituality, life, the universe, and everything in between. Hosted by The Writer and The Musician, both coffee enthusiasts, each episode features insightful discussions and thought-provoking conversations on various subjects, always with a cup of coffee in hand. Tune in to Stream of Coffeeness to explore different aspects of life and discover new perspectives, all while enjoying the comfort of a warm cup of coffee.